No government-enforced dress codesFrom the Editors:
Women in Islamic countries across the Middle East are forced to wear coverings, known as Burqas or Hijabs from heat-to-toe. In many nations, such as Saudi Arabia and Iran, such dress standards are strictly enforced by law. In front of a millions of viewers worldwide last night, watching the Miss Universe pageant, Miss Australia seemingly took a stand against such oppressive policies.
From the Columbus Ledger-Enquirer, Aug. 23:
Miss Australia Jesinta Campbell: What role should the government play in regulating potentially offensive clothing? "One of the greatest things we have is the freedom of choice...I don't think the government should have any say in what we wear."Her answer was met with loud cheers from the audience.
However, she did not make the top two contestants. The pageant was won by Miss Mexico. Campbell was in the Top 5, along with Miss Phillipines, Miss Jamaica, and Miss Ukraine.Interestingly, Miss Ukraine was similarly asked a political question. She was queried about full body scans at airports to protect against potential terrorists. Neighboring Russia has been a target of Islamic terrorism in recent years. Her response:
This is a very important question of security. To avoid the type of catastrophes that we are well aware. So if that helps us to save the lives of people then I’m for it!Out of a total of 83 contestants, only 6 came from predominantly Muslim countries: Egypt, Lebanon, Kosovo, Indonesia, Turkey, and Albania. Notably, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Somalia, and other large-population Muslim nations, did not participate.
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Actually, this applies in nearly all Western countries as well. France has now started regulating "potentially offensive clothing". The USA does it, too. One can be arrested for not wearing enough of what is considered the "proper" kind of coverings. If a man or woman wanted to go bottomless or wear see-through underwear, they stand an extremely good chance of ending up behind bars in this country.
By the way, in Muslim countries, it is usually the women who enforce these dress codes.
"By the way, in Muslim countries, it is usually the women who enforce these dress codes."
Bvllcr@p. [And to think we didn't know that Arabia's baton-wielding religious police were women. Usually. OK, on Sunday after a few beer...]
One thing we do know as a fact: In muslim countries, it "usually" isn't the women who write such repressive, dehumanizing laws. Another: It is "usually" the case that in muslim countries, the more power and self-determination women have, the less those patriarchal dress laws are enforced.
I agree Morgan, but just like our latest Miss USA, I still wanna see her in burqa
"It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so." - - - Robert A. Heinlein
The burqu is just another example of the robed crazy-ass religious whack-a-doo common in history hearing little voices in his head and thinking it is God talking.
Eat pork - don't eat pork - cut the end of your penus off - don't cut the end of your penus off - worship on Sunday - worship on Saturday . . . all of these people are nuts and should not come anywhere near me while I am cleaning my guns.
Ran,
"Bvllcr@p"
Nope. Fact.
"And to think we didn't know that Arabia's baton-wielding religious police were women."
Feel free to learn about the Iranian Revolution and the women who marched in the streets for the right to wear the burqah after the shah attempted to outlaw it.
"One thing we do know as a fact: In muslim countries, it "usually" isn't the women who write such repressive, dehumanizing laws."
Actually, these laws are much older than Islam. They go all the way back to Judaic traditions. In fact, some Jewish sects still insist that women keep these standards that you describe as "repressive" and "dehumanizing". Some Christian sects also require their women to wear similar clothing.
"Another: It is "usually" the case that in muslim countries, the more power and self-determination women have, the less those patriarchal dress laws are enforced."
Wrong again. The women in predominantly-Muslim countries generally don't see hijaab as repressive or dehumanizing. In fact, most of them see Western expectations for women as repressive and dehumanizing, because of the way that women are paraded around half-naked, objectified, and demeaned in predominantly-Christian nations. There's no proof that women are esteemed any higher in predominantly-Christian nations than we are in predominantly Muslim nations.
"Feel free to learn about the Iranian Revolution and the women who marched in the streets for the right to wear the burqah after the shah attempted to outlaw it."
Feel free to visit the graves of women in Iran today who reject it. Feel free today to do a bit of reading about Iran's Green movement. Feel free to sit in on an execution or two.
"Actually, these laws are much older than Islam. They go all the way back to Judaic traditions. In fact, some Jewish sects still insist that women keep these standards that you describe as "repressive" and "dehumanizing". Some Christian sects also require their women to wear similar clothing. "
*Pure bullshit*. For starters, the
burqa is modern and unique to islam. The veil was dumped by Jews roughly 2,000 years ago, around the time when the Rabbis made it law that women could file for divorce. No modern Jews of any mainstream Orthodox or Chassidic sect would tolerate the veil. Both men AND women cover hair. SO repressive, that.
As an Orthodox Jew who actually knows what's real here, it's patently obvious that you're guessing.
Do your homework.
The veil and the burqa represent sexual property rights - exclusively male sexual property rights of an ugly patriarchal system. When women in "predominantly muslim countries" are elevated from half-human status to full status as equals, when they can file for divorce, decide whom they marry, defend themselves against accusations of adultery, no longer fear "honor killing", when they can show their faces without shame, come back and complain about bikinis. That oughta be interesting.
Ran,
"Feel free to visit the graves of women in Iran today who reject it."
Why visit graves? There are plenty of women in Iran who can speak for themselves.
"Feel free to sit in on an execution or two."
Well, we certainly don't need to go to Iran to do that. We have plenty of executions here at home, since we're one of the few nations that still think the death penalty is a pretty sophisticated way to deal with people.
"*Pure bullshit*. For starters, the
burqa is modern and unique to islam."
Wrong! It predates Islam by thousands of years. History of the burqah
"The veil was dumped by Jews roughly 2,000 years ago, around the time when the Rabbis made it law that women could file for divorce."
Thanks for admitting that the veil was worn by Jewish women, too.
"No modern Jews of any mainstream Orthodox or Chassidic sect would tolerate the veil."
Regardless of what you wish, it's still true that there are Jewish women--devote Jewish women--who wear it, too. They certainly don't see themselves as repressed. They see it as their way of adhering to God's standards, just as many Muslim women see it.
"Both men AND women cover hair."
Yes, both men and women cover their hair in Islam and Judaism. It's one of those things that they have in common. I guess that's what happens when the same group of people develop religious beliefs based on the same basic concepts and the same forefathers.
ctd.
"As an Orthodox Jew who actually knows what's real here, it's patently obvious that you're guessing."
Nope. If I was just guessing, I wouldn't be able to find plenty of sources that prove what I'm saying. If you can prove that there are no Jewish women who wear the burqah, feel free to do so. If you think you can prove that people like Tertullian were lying when they wrote about the pre-Islamic practice of wearing the burqah, then feel free to give it a shot. What reason would Tertullian have for lying about what he saw? What in heaven's name would motivate all of those pre-Islamic artists to depict women wearing the burqah if it wasn't worn by them? Actually, the better question is: "How in the world did these artists know what a burqah was and how to depict one if it hadn't even been invented yet? Come on. Think, McFly! Think!
"The veil and the burqa represent sexual property rights - exclusively male sexual property rights of an ugly patriarchal system."
That may be what they represent TO YOU, but your opinion doesn't represent all of the millions of women around the world who veil. It's sexist to claim that your view should over-ride what they have had to say about why they veil. You can't have it both ways, either that ugly patriarchal system of men should be abolished and women should be acknowledged as having views of our own that are just as valid or we should let you appoint yourself our spokesperson, thereby reinforcing that "ugly patriarchal system".
"When women in "predominantly muslim countries" are elevated from half-human status to full status as equals, when they can file for divorce, decide whom they marry, defend themselves against accusations of adultery, no longer fear "honor killing", when they can show their faces without shame, come back and complain about bikinis.
Why should I complain about bikinis? I think that women should be able to wear them if that's what makes them feel happy just as a woman should be able to wear a burqah if that's what makes her happy. The problem isn't the clothing. The problem is with men like you who think they are the best judges of what dehumanizes, objectifies, and defines us as human beings. If women should be free to wear bikinis, then there's no reason why they shouldn't also feel free to wear burqahs. Unfortunately, countries throughout the West have chosen to remain a part of the "ugly patriarchal system" by deciding what constitutes appropriate clothing for women. You are nothing more than another weak little man who can't deal with the fact that we are perfectly capable of deciding what makes us feel closer to God.
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