by Eric DonderoYesterday we learned via CNN, that the alleged "ritual sex bed" discovered at the Mormon Compound Church in Texas, was not used for sex at all as originally reported, according to local Police officials. This prompted questions about the validity of the whole case against the Mormon Polygamists. Most have been reserved, holding back comment on a very touchy story.
Now today this stunning revelation on Drudge reported by the local CBS news affiliate KEYE TV:
Officials say the Texas Rangers are pursuing Rozita Swinton of Colorado as a “person of interest” regarding telephone calls related to the polygamist compound in Eldorado, Texas.
Colorado Springs police confirmed that on Wednesday they arrested Swinton, 33, at her home.
"This arrest stemmed from an incident that occurred in Colorado Springs in February of this year," according to a news release from the Colorado Springs Police Department.
The news story goes on to quote officials saying that Swinton, not at all affiliated with the Church and an out-of-state Colorado resident, may have made the initial call that led to the raids by the Feds.
This story is still fresh, and details have yet to come out. If it turns out that the Polygamist Sect leaders did indeed force young woman to have sex, and into marriages with men 40 years their senior, than they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But it's starting to appear that we shouldn't have believed everything that the government told us from the initial reports, about the raid.
Where are the Libertarian Waco Protesters? Longtime libertarians, veterans of the movement, will remember back in the mid 1990s, the Anti-BATF Waco Movement. It was an almost obsesssion with certain segments of the libertarian movement. After an initial coalition of anti-government groups (Gun toters, Anti-UN activists, Austin alternative types, long-haired liberal hippies, even Ron Paul Constitutionalists), converged on Waco to protest Janet Reno's actions, the movement morphed into an almost solely libertarian run effort. Carol Moore, Libertarian Feminist and D.C. Libertarian Party Chair emerged as the figurehead for the Anti-BATF Waco forces. She even published a 500-page book on the event which became an early internet sensation.
David Koresh, cult leader of the Branch Davidians, had a leftist style; a rock 'n roll guitarist, an admitted sexual libertine, rumored LSD user and an odd looking long-haired Gothic figure. The Davidians at the height of the seige even hung a banner out of the main Fort Entrance expressing solidarity with the famous central figure of the LA Riots Rodney King.
The Mormon Polygamists, on the other hand, present a sharply contrasting style: Bunned hairdos for the females, clean cut with dark suits for all the males, Bible carrying, fiercely conservative in their religious beliefs.
Are the Mormons a Politically Incorrect Religion?
One has to wonder if this has something to do with the complete avoidance of the subject among libertarians today of the raid on the Mormon compound?
Let alone the hinted at connection to the Salt Lake City Church and even Republican Mitt Romney.
Where are all those fanatic libertarian Waco prostetors today? Carol Moore used to lead daily rallies, for months after Waco was seized by Federal Agents, of hundreds of protestors. There were candle light vigils. There were reefs laid at the barbed-wire outer fence of the Waco compound. Songs were sung.
And today, in what's looking like a replay of the original Waco raid, complete silence from that same crowd. Curious indeed.
UPDATE!
This story has just been picked up by CNN. We welcome all CNN readers from their Crime News website.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/18/polygamy.custody/index.html
UPDATE!
Carol Moore, the prime subject of this article, has given us a response in the Comments section. We appreciate her remarks and participation in the discussion.
24 comments:
The person saying that the bed was not used for sex was a witness for the FLDS church. He also said that to his knowledge it was never used for sex. But considering the fact that he was not part of the congregation we don't know.
However, according to the MSNBC article on the subject (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24199519/page/2/),
FLDS women "also acknowledged that girls get married at ages younger than the state allows". Which basically supports everything that the state of Texas has been saying.
I think if there are allegations of child rape it needs to be properly investigated. This raid has some parallels, but it is different. The ATF wasn't firing incedinary rounds into the compound like they did in Waco.
Gwen, thanks for the comments. But doesn't that just beg the question, what's the proper age for consensual sex in the first place?
How about that Georgia case of that Black Football star who went to jail for two years for having sex with a white girl two years his junior?
Just because he was 18 and she was 16.
I agree sex between a 50 year old and a 17 year old is nothing short of disgusting. And that might be the case here with this Mormon sex.
But between an 18-year old and a 16-year old? Or even a 21-year old and a 17-year old?
And what about the double standard of males getting prosecuted and sent to prison for 20 years, while a sexy female 32-year old teacher who beds her 16-year old student, gets off scott-free with a $1 million book deal to boot?
Eric,
I have to strongly disagree. Bully for the police. These pediphile religious wackos need to be shut down. To defend their actions because on the grounds of freedom of religion is like saying female genital mutilation is "ok" because it's a "religious" practice.
BTW, my mind is still very open on this whole subject. It may turn out that these Mormon dudes were complete sexual molestors. Which is if that's the case they should have the book thrown at them.
But, I do think it's incredibly curious that Carol Moore is nowheres to be found in this whole deal.
You should have seen her in the mid-1990s. She was a total fanatic on Waco.
This case has some eerie parrallels to Waco I. And yet she is nowheres to be found.
You'd expect her to by all over the TV News about it, like she was in 1994/95/96 defending Koresh.
That's the big story here from the libertarian angle: The silence of those libertarian anti-BATF Waco demonstrators, apparently cause now it's a Mormon sect.
Andrew, you'll note from the piece, that I am still undecided as to the validity of the case. That's beside the point, at the moment. The point of the article, and what's most curious to me, is the silence of Carol Moore.
Where is she?
You were around back then. You remember Moore screaming and hollering at the top of her lungs about the injustices of Waco.
Here we are a week after this raid in Texas, and NOTHING from her or other left libertarians.
I suspect with Moore, being the Libertarian Feminist that she is, she's reluctant to comment cause of the patriarchy angle of the Mormon Church.
Eric,
You write:
"One has to wonder if this has something to do with the complete avoidance of the subject among libertarians today of the raid on the Mormon compound?"
Shameless plug:
If you bothered to read Rational Review News Digest each day, you'd know that far from "complete avoidance," there's been quite a bit of libertarian ("left-libertarian" is redundant) commentary on the subject.
As usual Dondero gets it all wrong:
* Dondero: “Where are the Libertarian Waco Protestors? “
FACT: The government killed 82 people, mostly women and children at Waco. No one was shot or injured at Zion. Obviously the response will be proportionate to the government crime. We are waiting to watch the system play itself out. Forced marriage in any age group is something libertarians are against, much as we support freedom of religion and the right to polygamous marriage contracts. (We're also against slave contracts where immigrant or poor women agree to marry men who then abuse them, stating that's part of the contract.)
FACT: On April 18th I briefly blogged on the topic of the 15th anniversary of the massacre of the Davidians noting: “The greater memorial is that when Texas law enforcement went into the Yearning for Zion Ranch over accusations of child abuse, they didn't go in shooting. However, as television footage clear showed, the Texas Rangers went in with their own armored vehicle, and all the officers were armored more like soldier than peace officers. So there's no doubt that Texas is ready to get it on against any citizens who tick them off.”
http://carolmoorereport.blogspot.com/2008/04/
15-years-since-feds-massacred-at-waco.html
* Dondero: ”the movement morphed into an almost solely libertarian run effort.”
FACT: While this was somewhat true in DC, outside of DC there were a lot of conservative groups, like Gun Owners Foundation which also published my book, and especially those working with Jeff Davis and Alex Jones in Waco.
* Dondero: “Where are all those fanatic libertarian Waco prostetors (sic) today? Carol Moore used to lead daily rallies, for months after Waco was seized by Federal Agents, of hundreds of protestors. There were candle light vigils. There were reefs laid at the barbed-wire outer fence of the Waco compound. Songs were sung.”
FACT: The first DC vigil was February 28, 1994, one year after the attack. Our local group The Committee for Waco justice held vigils on anniversaries, and a few to encourage congressional hearings, defend abused Davidian prisoners, etc. Other groups around the country and in Texas held other vigils and events.
As far as I know, federal actions against communes aren't singled out by religious status. Jim Jones and David Koresh who had Christian communes were doing things that were getting the state and federal governments worried. I know there will be a lot of nitwits that say the feds shouldn't have gotten involved with either one of those cults, but clearly when the members were abused and forced into staying it's a cause for action. Both Koresh and Jones did some very alarming and disturbing things to their own followers, including sex with children barely the age of puberty.
Free Talk Live has already talked about the Mormon situation form a Libertarian perspective on three different shows already. Free Talk Live is a nationally syndicated Libertarian talk program. Of course you wouldn't know this Eric, because of course you're not a Libertarian.
"
This case has some eerie parrallels to Waco I. And yet she is nowheres to be found. "
I think you meant "parallels"?
Sure like tons of CS gas being pumped into the building? The building catching on fire? Agents firing at those who tried to leave the compound? Sure a ton of parallels indeed. /sarcasm
Carol:
I appreciate you commenting here. That was a very civil and productive response which contributes to the furthering of this discussion. I do find it ironic though, that you end up agreeing with me half the time in your "Facts".
Anonymous:
Never heard of Free Talk Live. Probably not a "libertarian" show as you claim, but anarchist.
Anyway, next time, please follow our rules here at LR. We do not allow Anonymous postings. I won't delete your post. I'm asking you nicely. Please include your name next time. And no faux made-up names either.
Carol, you still haven't answered the main question.
I remember back in 1995/96. No offense intended, but you and your followers were absolute fanatics on Waco. You all really went off the deep end over it. You sucked up an enormous amount of time, effort and funds that could have gone to other more productive causes. In the end, I'm not sure what all those Waco protests ever accomplished. But that's beside the point.
Again, why is it that we're not seeing that same sort of fanaticism over this event. They're virtually identical. Though, admittedly, the Texas cops were much more careful than the BATF. Still, the events are eerily similar in a number of regards.
Why the silence, or near silence from your set?
If you're not seeing libertarian outrage about the Texas polygamists, you aren't reading the right blogs. David Friedman, for one, has been quite vocal on the issue.
Serious allegations of this nature - involving children - MUST always be investigated once they are made. Although some of them may be false, there is certainly enough evidence now to corroborate the main charges.....that these people are practicing polygamy and marrying girls at ages younger than the state allows. This has NOTHING to do with whether their lifestyle is politically correct or not. It has to do with the fact that it is against the laws of the United States of America. Closing yourself off in a private compound does NOT give anyone the right to perform acts that do not conform to American law.
I would rather investigate thoroughly and find out that incorrect assumptions have been made than to avoid a confrontation and allow abuses of children to continue. Where children are concerned, it is always preferable to err on the side of caution. I can't think of a more heinous crime than to force children into sex....or to confine them to an isolated environment without offering them the choice of experiencing what the rest of the world has to offer!
I am not certain if you should be going down this path, Eric. These are the kinds of issues that can easily be distorted to make libertarians look like laughing stocks and wackos (excuse the pun). What occured in Waco all those years ago is over and done with. Any misjudgments that occured at that time are now relegated to history. I don't see any correlation between what happened then, and what is occuring now, with the ongoing FLDS situation. These accusations against the FLDS are horrific, and if proven true in a court of law, I don't see how the FLDS can shield itself with the first amendment, when alleged crimes against children are occuring.
More to the point, I don't believe dredging up issues such as these help advance libertarian ideals in the American mainstream and in the eyes of the American people. I believe excessive attention upon fringe issues such as Waco, Ruby Ridge, FLDS etc. can only bring harm to libertarianism in the long run. The risks outweigh any short-term benefits.
Twin Sisters, thank you for participating in our blog with your thoughtful and well-presented arguments. I've seen your blog and it's quite good.
As an aside, did you know that there's a town in Oregon named Twin Sisters? I petitioned there once.
Anyway, I mostly agree. But therein lies the problem. If we go around investigating every time someone picks up the phone and makes an accusation against someone else, we'll be dangerously close to a police state.
Not too mention the extreme strain on the resources of law enforcement.
Of course, if law enforcement wasn't so busy wasting its time trying to catch seat belt law violators, poker players or small town marijuana users, then that'd be a different story.
Ryan, sorry. I didn't see Waco as a "fringe" issue. True, it became fringe cause the fringe elements took it over. But any time you have Agents of the US Government invading a compound and killing 80 some American citizens on largely baseless charges, that's not "fringe."
The Republican Party should have taken up the Waco banner. But it was too hot for them to handle. So, as it was, the issue was left up to fringe elements like Carol Moore.
Re: Republican taking up the banner, FACT: one of the main reasons the Republicans took the house in 1994 was voter outrage over Waco. And the one good thing Republicans did was hold two weeks of Waco hearings in 1995 and interview Davidians and the main BATF/FBI/prosecutorial players. They got out a number of good revelations, including an agent's allegation that the missing search warrant got "all shot up in the truck." Unfortunately, the committee settled for supporting the government's versions of events, but at least they produced lots of evidence of government crimes for citizens to see and hear.
Again, you exaggerate how often we protested. And I don't think the $1,000 odd dollars we raised in 7 years of activity - half of which went to Davidians in prison - exactly broke the libertarian bank.
Finally, re-read my paragraph on reacting proportionately to government actions. Right now preventing the threat of billions of deaths from a Bush/McCain holocaust is my number one issue.
Of course, news or web google "secession" and you'll see lots of Americans are coming to decide that that's the solution to an out of control imperial government hurtling us towards bankruptcy and nuclear destruction. Given its growing popularity, my main focus lately is promoting a libertarian-secessionist vision that will find libertarian ways to make sure that men, women and children do not become slaves in independent but tyrannical communities. If the accusations of defacto sexual slavery are true, the Zion group is a perfect example of what libertarian secessionist are working against. If they are not, then it's a government out of control issue which libertarians will become increasingly vocal on. And of course, it could be a combination of both. Discerning libertarians can tell the difference.
Ms. Moore will you be including Muslim Slavery in your investigations? Slavery is rampant in the Muslim world today, particularly in North Africa. Do you plan to condemn it and rampage against the atrocities in the Sudan for instance?
How about the muder of young girls in Muslim Honor Killings, in Britain, Europe and even in Dallas, TX USA?
I believe Ms. Moore just proved my point.
The best way to free Muslim women is to get the US boot off their backs. The countries with the worst oppression are those the US govt supports (like Saudi Arabia and formerly Taliban Afghanistan) or the US government targets (non-Shah Iran, current Iraq, etc.) However in Muslim countries the US govt ignores the govts can't use the excuse of western oppression to suppress indigenous feminist movements. Of course, both the FLDS and the Muslim women are captives of severely patriarchal religions which haven't been sufficiently feminized like most denominations of Christianity and Judaism.
Oh, you mean like Iran, Yemen, Syri, Sudan and Gaza? No US Troops there. That's why there's so much women's rights in those Muslim nations.
Carol, the best way for the misogynist attitudes in the Muslim world to end is for the moderate Muslims to win the Reformation and civil war that is going on throughout the world. Millions of Muslims don't believe in Sharia, honor killings, female genital mutilation, covering of the head(none of which is in the Koran). We can only hope that groups like Muslims Against Sharia and rationalists like Ayaan Hirsi Ali can help turn the tide at least on an intellecutal level
The biggest problem with this article and the discussion about it is that these criminals are constatly refered to as "Mormons." The fact is that they were kicked out of the LDS Church over 100 years ago and do not have any connection to the "Mormons." As the founding fathers said, anyone who wishes to govern themselves needs the power that knowledge brings and it saddens me that people dedicated to freedom would continue to spew negative and untrue sterotypes about a religion because they were happy to wallow in their ignorance.
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